I always appreciate these sorts of "roundups". The first thing I thought of when I heard about his IVF debacle was the lab/center of babies in 'A Brave New World'. Hate hate hate that this is happening.
Speaking of “Brave New World,” the horror toward childbearing and motherhood in the story was sadly prophetic. It’s awful when “sex” is reduced to pleasure without responsibility.
I hope Vance’s speech emboldens the peoples of Europe, even more than it outraged the elites. Some sinister official suggested it was election interference, which just proves Vance has called things correctly. I say free speech makes for free and democratic elections; by clamping down on speech the state is simply oppressing ordinary people and suppressing unwanted viewpoints. Bravo, JD Vance!
Great episode!
Who said there are some weeks when decades happen?
I've never known anyone who used a surrogate. I think that might be above my own socio-economic status and my that of my acquaintances. I knew one woman who applied to be a surrogate and knowing what I know now, finding the bravery to discourage her would have been the right thing. Fortunately, she ultimately decided against it on her own.
I do know many, many people who have resorted to IVF and I would say... please never register your disgust at their family. If they tell you their child is a result of IVF, that is too close to have fruitful input. At least find some avenue not so intimate to their life. Please put it at a more generalized, political level if you must. Infertility is a wound that bleeds and bleeds and bleeds. I have spent a lot of time reading people's thoughts, from my own various vantage points, and the truth is people who have had a more conventional family planning experience can't fathom the other side, though obviously we can all register there is suffering.
Personally, I spent Thursday afternoon hemorrhaging in the ER, losing what I had hoped would be my seventh living child. I was alone, I begged a ride off a nearby (very gracious) mom with even more children than me while my husband scrambled to get back to our house from the job he commutes to. When I came out of my emergency surgery, I found myself having a very sweet conversation with a lady maybe my age or older about the size of our family of origin etc. She knew I had six kids. In the course of our conversation, she told me she was only ever able to have one child. She said she thinks maybe God just won't give you more than you can handle. She told me that, with access to my medical chart, and knowledge of what I had just done that day. I did my best to tell her I don't think that is the right take. The wound of infertility/subfertility can strike to the core of a person's identity and relationship with God, it seems to more often than not. It is such a vulnerable experience.
Well, obviously I am a little postpartum in a weird way and it annoys me to always be the twisting away person when I reply to your wonderful thoughts. Love this podcast so much. So glad especially every time you talk about censorship.
So sorry about your awful experience -- so traumatic, and I feel so sad to know about the baby. I always repeat what a kind priest once said to me as I poured out my grief -- and guilt for somehow not protecting my baby --: "You didn't lose the baby -- God has the baby."
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here because you are, as you acknowledge, in a difficult state and so much of all of this topic is fueled by such states -- not only yours. We are all always suffering -- some more acutely than others at different times. As your experience confirms, even those with many children have gone along paths others aren't necessarily aware of. (That goes for me, too -- I think people assume things about me that aren't true.)
However, we have to be motivated, ultimately, by morality. And that morality, contrary to what many have come to believe, is not a matter of dry theology but of society imposing it with conviction -- a holy imposition built up of personal interactions. By the way, we already have a society imposing its values or twisted principles, so no use saying this is not how it's done. It absolutely is. It all comes down to what principles we will go by.
I think the Holy Spirit leads us to decide, with prudence (meaning the ability to see what action is necessary *at the time* -- in circumstances no one can predict or analyze, because each one is different), what to say or do. Whether to remain silent, to be sympathetic, or to speak out. There is no rule for that other than seeking the good of the person. "What the GOOD man does is always right."
What I think has happened is that a rule HAS been imposed, and that is the rule of not expressing what we feel about a situation, viscerally, in response to its ugliness or evil. We are told it doesn't matter what someone looks like or does, and so have removed one important means of helping them, which is registering a real response to, say, their self-mutilation or harm to others.
Think of it as the father glancing over at the child *with that look* or the mother raising her eyebrow -- moments of disapproval that do more to rein in disobedience than any amount of catechesis. To what end, though? Our brothers and sisters need this elemental feedback from us, feedback we are artificially suppressing.
Re: IVF, obviously in no way would I ever say one should "register disgust at someone's family" -- I really don't think I said that. However, it is SO important to register shock and horror BEFORE the person undergoes it. She or he needs to not think it's normal. It comes before sympathy about infertility -- in fact, the woman needs to know that IVF could harm whatever fertility she might have. Men would do well to express, as they do so well when alone with other men, their lack of respect for certain behaviors. "Dude, you're not really going to... "
If the person tells you AFTERWARDS (and isn't it odd how open people are about such intimate things? almost as if they crave our response), it's super important to say something along the lines of "your baby is beautiful, I love you, I hope you never do that again -- it hurts me to think about it and it's wrong." No one can say WHAT to say-- but no one can say "don't say anything" either. I'm just saying that registering what you really think is not on the face of it, wrong.
We can't actually KNOW what is fruitful and what is not fruitful. I actually really disagree, based on personal experience, that all these matters have to be approached in one way only. No, there are many ways.
We must simply be motivated by knowing the good and doing our best to act accordingly -- not by outcomes or how we feel about it. If we go by the latter, we will simply never speak out in truth. (Also, by the way, we will ALWAYS feel bad about it when we speak out. That's for our humility! We will be insufferable if we are content with how we handled things.)
Might you lose the friendship? Yes, you might. Remember, babies are frozen on a shelf somewhere, or sold for their parts... I believe it's at least a possibility that the person needs to know someone is not okay with that.
Re: Surrogacy -- we need to think about how we react to various things in our society, and how we are quick to register disapproval about *so many things*, yet this atrocity is off limits. If the person stood there and told us she had kidnapped a baby, I don't think we would smile and nod. Maybe you haven't met anyone who has used a surrogate or been one, but maybe someday soon you will.
It's worth thinking about how we will react, and why. If a person decides to remain silent, all I can do is assume he acted according to his principles in the moment, a moment I cannot presume to know in its particulars. But maybe hearing my voice saying "SAY SOMETHING" will help that person, when all the other voices are "it's not the right time to say anything."
(If the child is there, I would say never say anything. However, even there -- the child KNOWS something is amiss -- who knows, maybe he's looking for validation of what he knows. Maybe the Spirit will lead us to say and do the right thing at that moment, for his sake. We are facing a real existential crisis in this matter.)
I know I have changed my life based on how someone reacted, in all honesty, to something I said or did -- a reaction that at the time seemed invasive and yes, judgmental. Did it hurt and did I react badly in my turn? Yes. But these interactions were necessary. The Spirit moved that person, I am sure.
Thank you! That is a gem of reply, and I am going to come back to it and think about it. It was generous for you to type that out. You hit things I want to understand better, but do not know how to formulate a question on, and that is amazing!
I am grateful for your kindness and sympathy. It is SO sad when anyone doesn't get to meet their baby! IMO what happened to me on Thursday was a little over the top and dramatic and the most outlandish part of it is how un-traumatizing was for me. And usually, I am a big whiny crybaby who should probably go to confession even more often than I do to apologize for having unreasonably hurt feelings about the state of the world even though I have read the book of Job carefully and I understand I was not there when the firmament was laid. But I can tell God has my baby this time.
I did want to say something to that lady about how mysterious God and healing can be. I don't know why that miscarriage didn't terrify me more, but that is grace. It can be so hard to find leverage on the things that hurt you and make you feel separate from God. Infertility is such a white martyrdom that you don't get to opt out of. I can't help but feel that the way I got to literally lay out my life for my baby on Thursday was easier than some of the aspects of infertility. And I do understand that sin is corporate, and we can't pander to actions that come from distorted reactions to personal wounds. I guess some of my questions are more of an evangelical nature- will we profoundly scandalize people who are already confused if we are too blunt?
You didn't say 'register disgust at people's family', you said something more like register disgust at someone who divulges that they have used a surrogate. I wondered if I was being fair to reformulate it like that, but it just seems to me that is how anyone would hear it! But if you say you strongly disagree that there is one way to handle a matter of morality, I believe you. It is very new for me to honestly convey my opinions and I really appreciate you sharing that it is often humbling to speak out. I have often wondered if I am a total clown in the times I have spoken my mind, and I have not even been particularly brave, so it's nice to know that feeling doesn't *necessarily* indicate that I have made a bad move.
Well, I agree that society's natural immune system that helps us all flourish is out of order. There is some kind of question I hope I learn more about from you about the reactionary nature of the trad movement within Catholic orthodoxy, but I'm just not going to push it right now because you have already been incredibly generous with your attention. And you guys share so much every week and I know I will learn more, such a gift!
I did think of you at one point during Thursday's terrible ordeal! I have never received care in a Catholic hospital before and when I saw the Irish cross etched into the wall as they finally rushed me back to triage (they didn't believe me at first! I had to yell to the nurse taking other people's vitals that my vision was changing and I was about to pass out (and I was alone) and she just told me to "Lean back". Crazy, crazy, crazy land! That was really the hardest part of the whole thing and I'm telling you I could tell God was with me right then) I could absolutely feel that jolt of relief even though I knew that symbol and reminder probably didn't permeate that total functioning of the hospital. Still, the opportunity to gaze at the crucifix once I made it to the triage room was a chasm of difference from the secular hospital where I typically have to receive care which is unfortunately a cesspool. I thought- I hope I get a chance to read God's Hospital that Leila Lawler has recommended so many times! And here I am alive and having that chance, so praise God!
Also, even though I do make assumptions about your experience (which might be rude, I'm sorry) I know you are a woman with a very broad scope. I know it is not the case with every annoying, countersignaling internet commentator, but truly the reason I reach out is because I know you are thoughtful people and I know I will benefit if you choose to reply. So God bless you for putting yourselves out there and may he offer you abundant fortitude!
Thank you for this! Just wanted to share that it IS possible to medically reverse a chemical abortion depending on where the mother is in the process. I personally know a woman who had begun a chemical abortion, found a local doctor through the abortion pill reversal hotline, and then successfully stopped the abortion and had her baby at full term. Of course, the first thing to come up on Google when searching for “abortion pill reversal” is how abortion pill reversal is “not supported by science.” Thankfully the abortion pill reversal website is the second website to pop up (underneath all the “people also ask” list of questions).
I always appreciate these sorts of "roundups". The first thing I thought of when I heard about his IVF debacle was the lab/center of babies in 'A Brave New World'. Hate hate hate that this is happening.
Speaking of “Brave New World,” the horror toward childbearing and motherhood in the story was sadly prophetic. It’s awful when “sex” is reduced to pleasure without responsibility.
I hope Vance’s speech emboldens the peoples of Europe, even more than it outraged the elites. Some sinister official suggested it was election interference, which just proves Vance has called things correctly. I say free speech makes for free and democratic elections; by clamping down on speech the state is simply oppressing ordinary people and suppressing unwanted viewpoints. Bravo, JD Vance!
Great episode!
Who said there are some weeks when decades happen?
I've never known anyone who used a surrogate. I think that might be above my own socio-economic status and my that of my acquaintances. I knew one woman who applied to be a surrogate and knowing what I know now, finding the bravery to discourage her would have been the right thing. Fortunately, she ultimately decided against it on her own.
I do know many, many people who have resorted to IVF and I would say... please never register your disgust at their family. If they tell you their child is a result of IVF, that is too close to have fruitful input. At least find some avenue not so intimate to their life. Please put it at a more generalized, political level if you must. Infertility is a wound that bleeds and bleeds and bleeds. I have spent a lot of time reading people's thoughts, from my own various vantage points, and the truth is people who have had a more conventional family planning experience can't fathom the other side, though obviously we can all register there is suffering.
Personally, I spent Thursday afternoon hemorrhaging in the ER, losing what I had hoped would be my seventh living child. I was alone, I begged a ride off a nearby (very gracious) mom with even more children than me while my husband scrambled to get back to our house from the job he commutes to. When I came out of my emergency surgery, I found myself having a very sweet conversation with a lady maybe my age or older about the size of our family of origin etc. She knew I had six kids. In the course of our conversation, she told me she was only ever able to have one child. She said she thinks maybe God just won't give you more than you can handle. She told me that, with access to my medical chart, and knowledge of what I had just done that day. I did my best to tell her I don't think that is the right take. The wound of infertility/subfertility can strike to the core of a person's identity and relationship with God, it seems to more often than not. It is such a vulnerable experience.
Well, obviously I am a little postpartum in a weird way and it annoys me to always be the twisting away person when I reply to your wonderful thoughts. Love this podcast so much. So glad especially every time you talk about censorship.
So sorry about your awful experience -- so traumatic, and I feel so sad to know about the baby. I always repeat what a kind priest once said to me as I poured out my grief -- and guilt for somehow not protecting my baby --: "You didn't lose the baby -- God has the baby."
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here because you are, as you acknowledge, in a difficult state and so much of all of this topic is fueled by such states -- not only yours. We are all always suffering -- some more acutely than others at different times. As your experience confirms, even those with many children have gone along paths others aren't necessarily aware of. (That goes for me, too -- I think people assume things about me that aren't true.)
However, we have to be motivated, ultimately, by morality. And that morality, contrary to what many have come to believe, is not a matter of dry theology but of society imposing it with conviction -- a holy imposition built up of personal interactions. By the way, we already have a society imposing its values or twisted principles, so no use saying this is not how it's done. It absolutely is. It all comes down to what principles we will go by.
I think the Holy Spirit leads us to decide, with prudence (meaning the ability to see what action is necessary *at the time* -- in circumstances no one can predict or analyze, because each one is different), what to say or do. Whether to remain silent, to be sympathetic, or to speak out. There is no rule for that other than seeking the good of the person. "What the GOOD man does is always right."
What I think has happened is that a rule HAS been imposed, and that is the rule of not expressing what we feel about a situation, viscerally, in response to its ugliness or evil. We are told it doesn't matter what someone looks like or does, and so have removed one important means of helping them, which is registering a real response to, say, their self-mutilation or harm to others.
Think of it as the father glancing over at the child *with that look* or the mother raising her eyebrow -- moments of disapproval that do more to rein in disobedience than any amount of catechesis. To what end, though? Our brothers and sisters need this elemental feedback from us, feedback we are artificially suppressing.
Re: IVF, obviously in no way would I ever say one should "register disgust at someone's family" -- I really don't think I said that. However, it is SO important to register shock and horror BEFORE the person undergoes it. She or he needs to not think it's normal. It comes before sympathy about infertility -- in fact, the woman needs to know that IVF could harm whatever fertility she might have. Men would do well to express, as they do so well when alone with other men, their lack of respect for certain behaviors. "Dude, you're not really going to... "
If the person tells you AFTERWARDS (and isn't it odd how open people are about such intimate things? almost as if they crave our response), it's super important to say something along the lines of "your baby is beautiful, I love you, I hope you never do that again -- it hurts me to think about it and it's wrong." No one can say WHAT to say-- but no one can say "don't say anything" either. I'm just saying that registering what you really think is not on the face of it, wrong.
We can't actually KNOW what is fruitful and what is not fruitful. I actually really disagree, based on personal experience, that all these matters have to be approached in one way only. No, there are many ways.
We must simply be motivated by knowing the good and doing our best to act accordingly -- not by outcomes or how we feel about it. If we go by the latter, we will simply never speak out in truth. (Also, by the way, we will ALWAYS feel bad about it when we speak out. That's for our humility! We will be insufferable if we are content with how we handled things.)
Might you lose the friendship? Yes, you might. Remember, babies are frozen on a shelf somewhere, or sold for their parts... I believe it's at least a possibility that the person needs to know someone is not okay with that.
Re: Surrogacy -- we need to think about how we react to various things in our society, and how we are quick to register disapproval about *so many things*, yet this atrocity is off limits. If the person stood there and told us she had kidnapped a baby, I don't think we would smile and nod. Maybe you haven't met anyone who has used a surrogate or been one, but maybe someday soon you will.
It's worth thinking about how we will react, and why. If a person decides to remain silent, all I can do is assume he acted according to his principles in the moment, a moment I cannot presume to know in its particulars. But maybe hearing my voice saying "SAY SOMETHING" will help that person, when all the other voices are "it's not the right time to say anything."
(If the child is there, I would say never say anything. However, even there -- the child KNOWS something is amiss -- who knows, maybe he's looking for validation of what he knows. Maybe the Spirit will lead us to say and do the right thing at that moment, for his sake. We are facing a real existential crisis in this matter.)
I know I have changed my life based on how someone reacted, in all honesty, to something I said or did -- a reaction that at the time seemed invasive and yes, judgmental. Did it hurt and did I react badly in my turn? Yes. But these interactions were necessary. The Spirit moved that person, I am sure.
Thank you! That is a gem of reply, and I am going to come back to it and think about it. It was generous for you to type that out. You hit things I want to understand better, but do not know how to formulate a question on, and that is amazing!
I am grateful for your kindness and sympathy. It is SO sad when anyone doesn't get to meet their baby! IMO what happened to me on Thursday was a little over the top and dramatic and the most outlandish part of it is how un-traumatizing was for me. And usually, I am a big whiny crybaby who should probably go to confession even more often than I do to apologize for having unreasonably hurt feelings about the state of the world even though I have read the book of Job carefully and I understand I was not there when the firmament was laid. But I can tell God has my baby this time.
I did want to say something to that lady about how mysterious God and healing can be. I don't know why that miscarriage didn't terrify me more, but that is grace. It can be so hard to find leverage on the things that hurt you and make you feel separate from God. Infertility is such a white martyrdom that you don't get to opt out of. I can't help but feel that the way I got to literally lay out my life for my baby on Thursday was easier than some of the aspects of infertility. And I do understand that sin is corporate, and we can't pander to actions that come from distorted reactions to personal wounds. I guess some of my questions are more of an evangelical nature- will we profoundly scandalize people who are already confused if we are too blunt?
You didn't say 'register disgust at people's family', you said something more like register disgust at someone who divulges that they have used a surrogate. I wondered if I was being fair to reformulate it like that, but it just seems to me that is how anyone would hear it! But if you say you strongly disagree that there is one way to handle a matter of morality, I believe you. It is very new for me to honestly convey my opinions and I really appreciate you sharing that it is often humbling to speak out. I have often wondered if I am a total clown in the times I have spoken my mind, and I have not even been particularly brave, so it's nice to know that feeling doesn't *necessarily* indicate that I have made a bad move.
Well, I agree that society's natural immune system that helps us all flourish is out of order. There is some kind of question I hope I learn more about from you about the reactionary nature of the trad movement within Catholic orthodoxy, but I'm just not going to push it right now because you have already been incredibly generous with your attention. And you guys share so much every week and I know I will learn more, such a gift!
I did think of you at one point during Thursday's terrible ordeal! I have never received care in a Catholic hospital before and when I saw the Irish cross etched into the wall as they finally rushed me back to triage (they didn't believe me at first! I had to yell to the nurse taking other people's vitals that my vision was changing and I was about to pass out (and I was alone) and she just told me to "Lean back". Crazy, crazy, crazy land! That was really the hardest part of the whole thing and I'm telling you I could tell God was with me right then) I could absolutely feel that jolt of relief even though I knew that symbol and reminder probably didn't permeate that total functioning of the hospital. Still, the opportunity to gaze at the crucifix once I made it to the triage room was a chasm of difference from the secular hospital where I typically have to receive care which is unfortunately a cesspool. I thought- I hope I get a chance to read God's Hospital that Leila Lawler has recommended so many times! And here I am alive and having that chance, so praise God!
Also, even though I do make assumptions about your experience (which might be rude, I'm sorry) I know you are a woman with a very broad scope. I know it is not the case with every annoying, countersignaling internet commentator, but truly the reason I reach out is because I know you are thoughtful people and I know I will benefit if you choose to reply. So God bless you for putting yourselves out there and may he offer you abundant fortitude!
I am sure we will have a chance to revisit and expand on all of this! Blessings!
Thank you for this! Just wanted to share that it IS possible to medically reverse a chemical abortion depending on where the mother is in the process. I personally know a woman who had begun a chemical abortion, found a local doctor through the abortion pill reversal hotline, and then successfully stopped the abortion and had her baby at full term. Of course, the first thing to come up on Google when searching for “abortion pill reversal” is how abortion pill reversal is “not supported by science.” Thankfully the abortion pill reversal website is the second website to pop up (underneath all the “people also ask” list of questions).