Thank you for sharing the article with me! I had never heard of the 'pew argument' before. The reason Mrs. Lawler's comment immediately caught my attention was because, in the 1940's film "The Mark of Zorro", you can see a pew-less church in the scene where Tyrone Power's character goes to see the friar. As Power passes through the church, the friar is leading the peasants in what I think are evening prayers and they are all kneeling on the floor. There are no pews to be seen anywhere It always caught my attention whenever I watched the movie, but I had come to the conclusion that they had no pews because they were poor (which doesn't make sense because if that is the local parish, all the rich landowners nearby attend Mass there, too). It's fascinating how the filmmakers paid so much attention to detail!
At the risk of making this comment any longer, I will say I agree with one of the people who commented below your NLM article. Just two of my reasons why... Firstly, I think pews are rather beautiful (I'm speaking about the ones in old and Trad churches, not the sleek reclining pews at the N.O.), and a church would seem rather desolate or abandoned without them. I also like the order they preserve. I know you say the movement of the faithful wasn't part of the rubrics until later on, but I find, in my experience, even that increases the beauty of the TLM because it preserves the peace and quiet. I would find it very distracting if people were just walking around the church while Mass was going on. And like you say, pews are convenient, especially these days. I'm just a pew-lover, I guess...
In fact, it can be quite busy in an Eastern Orthodox church as everyone walks around, lighting candles, venerating icons, and so forth. Their liturgy suits it well because it's very long and there's a lot of singing, so one is just "in the zone" for a long time. But I think this kind of thing would drive most Westerners nuts. We like things orderly and we want to focus on one thing at a time.
In a way, we're so convinced in our bones about participation (VII-style) that we can't imagine a more "coming and going" sort of approach in which we leave the "work" to the priest and acolytes.
The Eastern rites even in the Catholic Church have a more relaxed attitude for that reason, and also the priest and deacon are doing way more prayers before the liturgy and so on.
Visiting Italy with its churches just tucked in a side street expanded my imagination a bit on this matter.
It's a very different thing to drive your car around the suburban "worship center" campus, parking at the right door (in the back, accessible to the parking lot)...
What you say is true, and in fact I find that trad liturgies are often looser in this way - with parents coming and going with their babies, some people going up for communion and others not. It has a more "family" feel to it. And this is because we are comfortable letting the clergy and ministers and choir do their jobs.
Thank you for this excellent review. I know for myself that I need the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the Traditional Mass. Not a matter of wanting, but of needing. I personally fell I need to buy Peter's new book to give me the words to explain this need to others. Dr. K is gifted with a certain perspicacity for sure, and his writings with a certain perspicuity. Thank God. Peter O'Reilly
Going down the pew rabbit hole, I think I would like it if the pews went away, for the selfish reason that I find it impossible to meet the cultural and clergy-demanded standard of silence with my young ones at the TLM. Despite my best efforts, they don’t like to go to Mass much. If there weren’t pews to constrict everyone that standard would obviously have to go too. As it is, there are a lot of parents and wiggly toddlers crammed into the narthex and it’s hard to find a pew for nine people anyway when we are inevitably not early to Low Mass. It’s stressful. But I also really like the Divine Liturgy and I find all the singing and movement even very conducive to prayer. All the little things get swept up into the larger swell of the chanting. The Low Mass experience is comparatively rigid, to use a loaded term. We attend the TLM every week, so I’m definitely not a hater, but there really is something to be said for the “horizontal” considerations of the liturgy from the point of view of the laity. I also don’t have a problem with not following along strictly in my hand missal, again because I often just don’t have a free hand. But to hear some trads you aren’t doing things right if you aren’t following along in the hand missal the whole time. The Lord doesn’t abandon me and my participation in the Sacrifice until I’m through the years of childbearing. The duties of my state in life are not going to be in competition with reception of grace. Forgive the rant. This along with the dictation of everyone’s posture and position, not to mention the officious ushering of everyone to the communion rail in strict order, seems to me to be related phenomena to the pew question.
The interesting thing is that there really aren't *rubrics* for the congregation!
Only for the celebrants.
I have noticed that gothic-style churches are very forgiving, acoustically -- even humble ones such as you find in old cities in New England, away from the center of town. It's much easier to have a gaggle of children in a big old stone and plaster gothic church with lots of statues and pillars than in some low-ceilinged efficient one.
I love the Divine Liturgy too (and know some Melkites who detest pews haha).
I like the "coming-and-going" aspect of it. It's quite free.
I'm intrigued. How come Dr. Kwasniewski wants pews removed, of all things?
Here's the article Leila was referring to:
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2020/07/are-pews-in-churches-problemand-if-so.html
But at the end, I admit that this could cause a lot of inconveniences.
Thank you for sharing the article with me! I had never heard of the 'pew argument' before. The reason Mrs. Lawler's comment immediately caught my attention was because, in the 1940's film "The Mark of Zorro", you can see a pew-less church in the scene where Tyrone Power's character goes to see the friar. As Power passes through the church, the friar is leading the peasants in what I think are evening prayers and they are all kneeling on the floor. There are no pews to be seen anywhere It always caught my attention whenever I watched the movie, but I had come to the conclusion that they had no pews because they were poor (which doesn't make sense because if that is the local parish, all the rich landowners nearby attend Mass there, too). It's fascinating how the filmmakers paid so much attention to detail!
At the risk of making this comment any longer, I will say I agree with one of the people who commented below your NLM article. Just two of my reasons why... Firstly, I think pews are rather beautiful (I'm speaking about the ones in old and Trad churches, not the sleek reclining pews at the N.O.), and a church would seem rather desolate or abandoned without them. I also like the order they preserve. I know you say the movement of the faithful wasn't part of the rubrics until later on, but I find, in my experience, even that increases the beauty of the TLM because it preserves the peace and quiet. I would find it very distracting if people were just walking around the church while Mass was going on. And like you say, pews are convenient, especially these days. I'm just a pew-lover, I guess...
In fact, it can be quite busy in an Eastern Orthodox church as everyone walks around, lighting candles, venerating icons, and so forth. Their liturgy suits it well because it's very long and there's a lot of singing, so one is just "in the zone" for a long time. But I think this kind of thing would drive most Westerners nuts. We like things orderly and we want to focus on one thing at a time.
In a way, we're so convinced in our bones about participation (VII-style) that we can't imagine a more "coming and going" sort of approach in which we leave the "work" to the priest and acolytes.
The Eastern rites even in the Catholic Church have a more relaxed attitude for that reason, and also the priest and deacon are doing way more prayers before the liturgy and so on.
Visiting Italy with its churches just tucked in a side street expanded my imagination a bit on this matter.
It's a very different thing to drive your car around the suburban "worship center" campus, parking at the right door (in the back, accessible to the parking lot)...
What you say is true, and in fact I find that trad liturgies are often looser in this way - with parents coming and going with their babies, some people going up for communion and others not. It has a more "family" feel to it. And this is because we are comfortable letting the clergy and ministers and choir do their jobs.
Thank you for this excellent review. I know for myself that I need the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the Traditional Mass. Not a matter of wanting, but of needing. I personally fell I need to buy Peter's new book to give me the words to explain this need to others. Dr. K is gifted with a certain perspicacity for sure, and his writings with a certain perspicuity. Thank God. Peter O'Reilly
Excellent review! Thank you!
Going down the pew rabbit hole, I think I would like it if the pews went away, for the selfish reason that I find it impossible to meet the cultural and clergy-demanded standard of silence with my young ones at the TLM. Despite my best efforts, they don’t like to go to Mass much. If there weren’t pews to constrict everyone that standard would obviously have to go too. As it is, there are a lot of parents and wiggly toddlers crammed into the narthex and it’s hard to find a pew for nine people anyway when we are inevitably not early to Low Mass. It’s stressful. But I also really like the Divine Liturgy and I find all the singing and movement even very conducive to prayer. All the little things get swept up into the larger swell of the chanting. The Low Mass experience is comparatively rigid, to use a loaded term. We attend the TLM every week, so I’m definitely not a hater, but there really is something to be said for the “horizontal” considerations of the liturgy from the point of view of the laity. I also don’t have a problem with not following along strictly in my hand missal, again because I often just don’t have a free hand. But to hear some trads you aren’t doing things right if you aren’t following along in the hand missal the whole time. The Lord doesn’t abandon me and my participation in the Sacrifice until I’m through the years of childbearing. The duties of my state in life are not going to be in competition with reception of grace. Forgive the rant. This along with the dictation of everyone’s posture and position, not to mention the officious ushering of everyone to the communion rail in strict order, seems to me to be related phenomena to the pew question.
The interesting thing is that there really aren't *rubrics* for the congregation!
Only for the celebrants.
I have noticed that gothic-style churches are very forgiving, acoustically -- even humble ones such as you find in old cities in New England, away from the center of town. It's much easier to have a gaggle of children in a big old stone and plaster gothic church with lots of statues and pillars than in some low-ceilinged efficient one.
I love the Divine Liturgy too (and know some Melkites who detest pews haha).
I like the "coming-and-going" aspect of it. It's quite free.